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SON OF ABRAHAM

Silence is complicity
Articles Posted: 6  Links Seeded: 160
Member Since: 3/2010  Last Seen: 5/19/2012

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The Returning Issue of Palestine's Refugees

Seeded on Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:24 PM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: Guardian Unlimited
world-news, israel, palestine, refugees, return, abbas, erekat, bernadotte
Seeded by Son of Abraham
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Saeb Erekat wrote: Before his murder in 1948, Lord Folke Bernadotte, the first UN mediator to the Arab-Israeli conflict, stated: "It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent [Palestinian] victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine." Lord Bernadotte paid for his candour with his life as Jewish militants assassinated him under the direction of Yitzhak Shamir, the man who would later become prime minister of Israel.

CoH, please

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  • Groups: Activism, Anti-Discrimination, Anti-War, Atheism, Brave New World, Citizens Against Apathy, Cultural Understanding, Eurovine, Free Thinkers, Hate Watch, Historical Vine, Islam Anti-Defamation League, Islamic Scholars, Left of Center, Palestine - The Holy Land, Peace in Palestine, race and ethnicity, We Must Change, Worldviews
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  • Public Discussion (48)
Son of Abraham

Contrary to what Israeli political figures would like the world to believe, the issue of Palestinian refugees is not an academic matter, the solution of which is somehow rendered moot by the passage of time and by the creation of Israeli "facts on the ground." Palestinian displacement continues to this day through the revocation of residency cards, land confiscation, home demolitions and evictions. At the same time, Israel has barred Palestinians displaced between 1947 and 1949, and again in 1967, from returning to their homes or receiving restitution for their lost property, making Palestinian refugees the oldest and largest refugee community in the world today.

  • 9 votes
#1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:32 PM EST
IslamicScholars

making Palestinian refugees the oldest and largest refugee community in the world today.

Really amazing on how long the neglect has been taking place.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:44 AM EST
Fada

This's not a neglect issue , this is a full plan for swallowing the whole Palestinian territories step by step .

They have zero intention to return the old refugees of 1948 , otherwise and by World's silence they will create new refugee problem by demolishing Palestinian houses and inflicting prejudice and apartheid policies on Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem to let them leave .

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:48 PM EST
Meloney

Israel's actions (implementing that plan you mention) and official non-recognition (denial?) of the Nakba keep the negotiations for status of refugees out of public purview. There are also practical reasons why we don't hear much about it.

The right of return is still one of the pillars of any final settlement. Recognizing the right and negotiating settlement with refugees may be thought of as 2 distinct processes. Recognizing the right does not imply the literal transfer of persons to the exact place from which they once were. Think of the millions of persons resettled by this right following WWII. There were entire cities which were uninhabitable. Following recognition of the right to return refugees are given options based on current circumstances as well as the historic claims they might have. They won't all be offered the same set of options.

We also know that the issue is considered by Israel has as Olmert mentioned recently.

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:41 PM EST
Side Winder V

The Balfour declaration led to around 10 million displaced Palestinians around the world today and all the ongoing conflict and misery in the Middle East.

The Palestinian Diaspora: A History of Dispossession

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:53 PM EST
Meloney

Nice concise history in that link Side Winder V.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:54 PM EST
Side Winder V

Yes Meloney, this is response to the deniers of Nakba and Palestinian Diaspora.

  • 4 votes
#1.6 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:16 PM EST
Side Winder V

The Israeli hasbara has been desperately spreading misinformation based on their spin claiming that the Palestinians have no right to return. Amazing how the indigenous have lost their right of return to their homeland and the foreigners are automatically allowed to migrate into Palestine.

  • 5 votes
#1.7 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:41 PM EST
Side Winder V

The Israeli hasbara is missing the point that Palestinians of all religions (Islam, Christendom and Judaism) and non religions lived together in peace until the European Zionists came along with their merciless militaristic expansionist and racist ideology and planted hate between people of faith or non faith and caused misery and sorrow to millions of indigenous Palestinians for over 62 years.

  • 4 votes
#1.8 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:55 PM EST
Fada

Palestinian Diaspora

Interesting simile ''Palestinian Diaspora'' , first time to read it

  • 5 votes
#1.9 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:58 PM EST
Side Winder V

Yes Fada, that's the Zionists plan to colonize Palestine and ethnically cleans it from its indigenous inhabitants.

The Polish Zionist David Gruen (Green) who changed his name to David Ben-Gurion and who became the first Israeli Prime Minister was the master of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

According to Shabtai Teveth, one of Ben-Gurion' official biographers:

On June 16, 1948, there were calls by members of the MAPAM party for the return of Jaffa's"peace minded" Palestinian refugees, and in response, Ben-Gurion stated during a Cabinet meeting:

"I do not accept the version [i.e. policy] that [we] should encourage their return. . . I believe we should prevent their return . . . We must settle Jaffa, Jaffa will become a Jewish city. . . . The return of [Palestinian] Arabs to Jaffa [would be] not just foolish." If the [Palestinian] Arabs were allowed to return, to Jaffa and elsewhere, " and the war is renewed, our chances of ending the war as we wish to end it will be reduced. . . . Meanwhile, we must prevent at all costs their return," he said, and, leaving no doubt in the ministers' minds about his views on the ultimate fate of the [Palestinian] refugees, he added: "I will be for them not returning after the war." (Benny Morris, p. 141 & 1949, The First Israelis, p. 75)

  • 4 votes
#1.10 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:19 PM EST
stonesoup68

David Ben-Gurion and who became the first Israeli Prime Minister was the master of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

The Master? Obviously not, which is why this conversation is taking place.

  • 2 votes
#1.11 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:26 PM EST
Side Winder V

Oh yes, the colonialist Zionists revere David Ben-Gurion because of his pioneering plans for the The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine whilst he was declaring his recognition of the United Nations Charter.

That proves the point, Israel is founded on lies and broken promises.

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:16 AM EST
Fada

Pappe writes about the "Red House" in Tel-Aviv that became headquarters for the Hagana, the dominant Zionist underground paramilitary militia during the British Mandate period in Palestine between 1920 and 1948 when the Jewish state came into being. He details how 'David Ben-Gurion' , Israel's first prime minister, met with leading Zionists and young Jewish military officers on March 10, 1948 to finalize plans to ethnically cleanse Palestine that unfolded in the months that followed including "large-scale (deadly serious)intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and finally, planting mines among the rubble

Planning for 'Palestinian Holocaust' by those who survived atrocities of Nazi holocaust is so much surprising

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:12 PM EST
Side Winder V

Not only are the Palestinians seeking the realization of their right of return to their homeland but also the United Nations and International Community. The question is whether Israel does adhere to United Nations resolutions or not.

  • 4 votes
#1.14 - Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:30 AM EST
Side Winder V

The Palestinian Diaspora: Right to Return

The right of return derives from UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed in December of 1948. The part of the resolution concerning Palestinian refugees was one of fifteen paragraphs dealing with various aspects of the conflict. The contents of Resolution 194 were adopted from the recommendations of the UN Conciliation Committee (CCP) progress report created in September 1948 by Count Folke Beradotte, the UN mediator in Palestine. According to Paragraph 11 of the resolution, recognition of the Palestinians' right to return to their homes is stated as follows: "refugees who wish to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to, property which under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the governments or authorities responsible." The UN Has reaffirmed this resolution nearly every year since its adoption. (xv)

  • 4 votes
#1.15 - Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:33 AM EST
Side Winder V

Saeb Erekat wrote:

In accordance with past Israeli-Arab agreements based on UN resolutions – most significantly the Egypt-Israeli Camp David Accords based on UN resolution 242's formula of land-for-peace – resolution 194 must provide the basis for a settlement to the refugee issue.

The reality here is that out of the Arab-Israeli agreements the Arab side is fulfilling their pledges and Israel is not.

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:44 AM EST
stonesoup68

live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date,

We'll get back to you on that....

  • 2 votes
#1.17 - Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:54 AM EST
Reply
Meloney

Israel's recognition of Palestinian refugee rights and its agreement to provide reparation and meaningful refugee choice in the exercise of these rights will not change the reality in the Middle East overnight, nor will it lead to an existential crisis for Israel. What it will certainly do is mark the beginning of a new reality that will no longer be rooted in repression, denial of rights, and discrimination. In other words, it will lead to a lasting peace – the kind of peace envisaged by Lord Bernadotte and hoped for by Palestinians and Israelis alike.

Yep, and beyond the Middle East this recognition of refugee rights will bolster the international order that encourages peace.

Great seed SoA : )

  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:14 PM EST
Son of Abraham

Thanks Meloney, and for peace to be accomplished there should be representation of all the Palestinians including the refugees in future negotiations.

  • 9 votes
#2.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:56 PM EST
Reply
Kevin Mirek

Son of Abraham,

" an offence against the principles of elemental justice" ????

Did he go to the Law School of, "I'll make it up as I go?"

Can we hear from a professional? That is to say the person with the jets, the bombs, the nukes ... that person's word will have some weight.

Palestinian crybabies are always talking nonsense like "Elemental justice." They should learn to use a gun. It's the ONLY way they will get anything in this world. It has always been like that.

  • 3 votes
#3 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:17 PM EST
Meloney

There is also strength is moral fortitude. In that the Palestinians have accumulated a substantial armory.

  • 6 votes
#3.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:23 PM EST
Son of Abraham

Profile: Saeb Erakat

Mr Erakat was born in Jerusalem in 1955, and went on to earn degrees from the University of San Francisco in the US and the University of Bradford in the UK.

After gaining his doctorate in peace studies at Bradford, he became a lecturer in political science at An-Najan University in the West Bank town of Nablus.

  • 7 votes
#3.2 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:29 PM EST
Son of Abraham

Kevin Mirek,

Here is another link about Saeb Erekat

Saeb Erekat, PhD

  • PhD, Peace Studies, Bradford University
  • MA, Political Science, University of San Francisco
  • BA, Political Science, University of San Francisco

Thank you

  • 7 votes
#3.3 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:43 PM EST
Kevin Mirek

Melanie,

I am sure that is comforting to the Palestinian soldier who has to rush the remote gun tower.

SoA,

I was talking about the person quoted, Lord Folke Bernadotte.

And now he is dead. He should have learned to use a gun.

  • 1 vote
#3.4 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:48 PM EST
Son of Abraham

Kevin Mirek:

Count Bernadotte - Swedish diplomat and nobleman

In fact, Meloney had a very interesting seed in which Count Bernadotte work was discussed.

Sands of Sorrow Gaza 1950 Stellaa Open Salon

Count Bernadotte's working on and accomplishing the release of about 31,000 prisoners including Jews from German concentration camps during World War II, did not save him from being assassinated by the Zionist gangs, who were claiming a homeland in Palestine on the grounds of vengeance for those prisoners.

  • 8 votes
#3.5 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:04 PM EST
Kevin Mirek

SoA,

My point went to the vast superiorty of strength and power instead of diplomatic posturing and article writing.

A gun and air power will secure Israel's JEWISH future far more securely, effectively and immediately than can a diplomat.

  • 3 votes
#3.6 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:28 PM EST
IslamicScholars

They should learn to use a gun. It's the ONLY way they will get anything in this world. It has always been like that.

Military mindset is what started this conflict to begin with and continuing this mind set will only continue the conflict.

  • 9 votes
#3.7 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:49 AM EST
Kevin Mirek

Islamic Scholar,

That is correct. The Arabs attacked the Jews IMMEDIATELY upon Britain (through the UN mandate) establishing the TINY country of Israel. My guess is that the dispute will be ended by violence too.

  • 2 votes
#3.8 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:54 AM EST
bradd2Deleted
Side Winder V

This "might is right" logic has disregard to International Law and United Nations principles.

  • 3 votes
#3.10 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:59 PM EST
Kevin Mirek

Uh yeah, I'd let international refugees tell me what to do.

  • 2 votes
#3.11 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:54 PM EST
Side Winder V

That's called the International Law and the United Nations.

  • 3 votes
#3.12 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:33 PM EST
Side Winder V

194 (III). Palestine -- Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

  • 4 votes
#3.13 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:35 PM EST
Side Winder V

Yes, that progress report by the United Nations was agreed on after the Swedish mediator Count Folke Bernadotte was assassinated by the Zionist terrorists.

  • 4 votes
#3.14 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:40 PM EST
Side Winder V

And guess what! Those Zionist terrorist committed their heinous crime against Count Bernadotte by the order of the chief terrorist Yitzhak Shamir who later became Prime Minister of Israel.

The Murder of Count Folke Bernadotte

Israel was founded by lies terror and assassination. Is that the terrorist state some are defending?

  • 4 votes
#3.15 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:52 PM EST
Reply
stonesoup68

Please forgive my question.

Are you all talking about Palestinians "returning" to Israel? Or to the possible future Palestinian state?

  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:18 PM EST
stonesoup68

Please forgive my question.

Are you all talking about Palestinians "returning" to Israel? Or to the possible future Palestinian state?

No one? No Answer?

  • 2 votes
#4.1 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:43 PM EST
Side Winder V

If you had read the article of the seed you would have known.

  • 4 votes
#4.2 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:50 PM EST
Son of Abraham

stonesoup68:

#5:

Could you please stay on the same thread (#4)?

Thanks

  • 4 votes
#4.3 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:44 PM EST
stonesoup68

Could you please stay on the same thread

Sure, my bad, must have hit the wrong button.

So what is the answer? Israel or future Palestinian state?

  • 2 votes
#4.4 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:51 PM EST
Side Winder V

To where they will return - that's easy for the informed to know, just read Ilan Pappe:

Power and History in the Middle East: A Conversation with Ilan Pappe

I was born in 1954 to a German Jewish family in Haifa where I lived in blissful ignorance about the world beyond the comfortable and safe mount Carmel until I reached the age of 18. At that age I began my military service which introduced me to other groups and to the host of social problems facing Israeli society. But it was only in the 1970s, at Hebrew University, that I was exposed to the plight of the Palestinians in Israel as an undergraduate in the department of Middle Eastern History. It was then and there that I found my love for history and developed my belief that the present cannot be understood and the future changed without first trying to decipher its historical dimensions.

  • 5 votes
#4.5 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:18 AM EST
Side Winder V

Ilan Pappe was senior lecturer, department of political science, Haifa University, but had to leave Israel after receiving death threats from the usual bigoted Zionist thugs in "democratic Israel", and he wrote an interesting article about The Geneva Bubble

If the Palestinians weren't happy with the Zionist idea of partition, it was time for unilateral action. The Jewish leadership turned to its May 1947 map, showing clearly which parts of Palestine were coveted as the future Jewish state. The problem was that within the desired 80 per cent, the Jews were a minority of 40 per cent (660,000 Jews and one million Palestinians). But the leaders of the Yishuv had foreseen this difficulty at the outset of the Zionist project in Palestine. The solution as they saw it was the enforced transfer of the indigenous population, so that a pure Jewish state could be established. On 10 March 1948, the Zionist leadership adopted the infamous Plan Dalet, which resulted in the ethnic cleansing of the areas regarded as the future Jewish state in Palestine.

  • 5 votes
#4.6 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:21 AM EST
Side Winder V

John Pilger wrote commenting on Illan Pappe's book: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine:

Denying the Israeli past

Professor Ilan Pappe is one of the few to have read all the transcripts of more than 60 hours of Katz's taping of eyewitness evidence. "They include," he wrote, "horrific descriptions of executions, of the killing of fathers in front of children, of rape and torture." He describes Katz's thesis "as a solid and convincing piece of work whose essential validity is in no way marred by its shortcomings". The shortcomings, he says, come down to four minor mistakes. But the importance of the Katz research is its illumination of Israel's history in terms of "the expulsion, direct and indirect, of some 750,000 Palestinians, the systematic destruction of more than 400 villages and scores of urban neighbourhoods, as well as the perpetration of some 40 massacres of unarmed Palestinians."

  • 4 votes
#4.7 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:42 AM EST
Reply
stonesoup68

read the article of the seed you would have known

I did. It is unclear. They use the term "return to their homes". I was asking for a more direct statement.

Is this return to Israel or a future Palestinian state? Simple question.

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:30 PM EST
Meloney

It was clear enough to me. Evidently you are still conflating recognition of the right to return with restitution offered to individuals who are refugees.

btw - you and I have discussed this important distinction in the past so your question (repeated as though it is actually significant) strikes me as particularly disingenuous. You are additionally muddying the waters by including an assumption a substantive option that is hypothetical (a Palestinian state). Next you'll be pulling hair splitting semantics over whether it's a right "of" return or right "to" return.

What do you think? Hm? Are you too befuddled? Really incomprehensible to you or just a convenient pretense for derailing constructive discussion?

  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:33 AM EST
stonesoup68

What do you think?

I think as sad as the refugees plight is, they will never be allowed to return to Israel.

  • 3 votes
#5.2 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:57 PM EST
Reply
Veritas 1234

The Auschwitz Accords also resulted in displacement for many.

It tended to be of a non-temporary nature, and there was also no right of return granted.

Now they practice the same thing on Palestinian victims under the Balfour Accords etc.

  • 2 votes
Reply#6 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:51 PM EST
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